Conversations with Nati

My wife Nati and I love to get slightly too high on caffeine and have deep & hilarious conversations. Sometimes we wonder if it might be interesting for other people to listen in. The other day we recorded one of these conversations, and today we're sharing it as an experiment.

In this recording, I'm trying to convince Nati that she should write more of her ideas in public, and we talk about the gender dynamics that affect how people communicate. I think the content of the conversation is interesting, but also "how" we communicate: we have a lot of fun disagreeing with each other and giving each other increasingly honest feedback.

If you listen and you think we should do more of this, leave a comment and let us know. And any feedback you want to share will be gratefully received too.

So here's the first episode of Conversations with Nati. You'll notice we started recording halfway through but don't worry you'll catch up.

Transcript

N: Did you want to do a recap? Is that what that whole intro was?

R: No, I don't. I didn't specifically want to recap but I did want to enquire into: why am I always trying to coach you into writing in public. Or, it doesn't have to be writing, but just, why do I think it's so important that your ideas are made more public? That your own voice is out there.

N: Is it so you stop stealing my ideas? (laughing)

R: Well, like I said, I can't steal your idea if you've already published it.

N: Yeah, that's what I mean.

R: I think, like, I think the serious point of what you're saying is, I can do a better job of giving credit. Not just to you but to everyone that I seek inspiration from. And it's obvious that my brain doesn't work that way. Like I integrate perspectives really quickly, and I lose track of where the insect came from and it feels like it was mine. And I don't keep good records of like, oh, it was this conversation. Like I just did it to five minutes ago: "I was with someone and they said this thing" and you're like "it was me who said that!" I just lose track of that really quickly.

N: I think it's kind of normal to lose track sometimes, right of some of those things.

R: There's people I know that are really dedicated to the art of giving credit. Both Prem & Emily, do it. Lucas does it. I think for Lucas it's the solution to so much of our economic problems around intellectual property. If you just give credit, then everything could be shared freely, so long as people know it came from here. That's a way of showing respect for your elders.

N: Yeah. It is. There's something else, it's about acknowledging. Like, you will like to be acknowledged for your thinking, right? You like to be known? For the things you say, the things you think about.

R: That's a side effect --

N: Imagine, if someone explained Microsolidarity to you, "Oh yeah, I heard this thing", and they didn't know that it was you.

R: I'm not too worried if people don't know it's me. I think if they thought it was someone else that would be concerning. But like, my primary motivation is just the sheer of joy of curiosity, figuring things out and how do I explain them. The acknowledgement is a side effect, people saying, "you explain that well man, you put that experience into words that I'd had, but I didn't know how to describe". Um, that's the payoff but it's not the... it's the icing on the cake. I mean, icing is better than cake though, let's be honest.

N: I mean, it is about recognition, and it is about giving recognition, where it is supposed to be.

R: on the flip side of it, I am quite serious that I couldn't see you ideas, if you already published them.

N: It's not the point.

R: It is the point! I'm saying, if you had a public track record of, leaving your ideas where people can find them, then I don't have the option to steal them. No one does. It's like, oh, right. That's what Nati knows. That's her voice.

And it's one of these situations where I feel like there's a dynamic between us. We're both of us have got a change the dance step. And we're both like, kind of resentfully going, "well, I'm not going to change until you do".

N: no, I'm not. I'm not a writer. At least, not at this stage.

R: But you are great writer.

N: No I'm not! When did you see me write something?

R: When you used to travel you used to write all the time, you used to write poetry. I've seen you write blog posts that are really compelling. You write training material all the time.

N: Once in a while I have a spur of insight into something that is writeable and that it makes sense when I put it into that form.

R: The reason I love facilitating a training with you is because, like nobody else I know, you will actually think about 'how do I explain this clearly so the people will get it?' That's a writer skill. It's a communicator's skill.

N: Let's say that I may get into that modality one day. But right now, it's not my primary focus of enquiry, of how I become a better write, like you are.

R: Well, let me just say I'll continue to integrate your ideas, but if you had published them ahead of time, there would be easier to give you credit for them.

N: There's something that I noticed, when we were... you remember that conference? The "Fearless Cities" or something like that? That we went in Belgium, that Ezra was facilitating some panels?

R: Yeah.

N: She's facilitating a panel with all women. And one thing that I noticed there, I guess it was the first time that I noticed it.

R: I know what you noticed.

N: Yeah, I'm pretty sure you know. They were all quoting each other, or building on top of the other person by saying, "like this person said, she said once... this thing, and I heard this other person said that other thing..." And I found that very, community-building, in a strange way, it's like weaving the voices together, and saying "I heard you". That's kind of what it means in a way. It's like "I heard you, I recognise you said that, I recognise you had that thought. And I'm going to build on top of it. Or I'm going to add something else to it and I'm going to bring my voice."

R: I completely understand that and it is beautiful to witness and it shifts the dynamic in the group when someone is modelling it. The problem is when I do it. I feel like I'm manipulating people.

N: Huh? Why?

R: Because it's not my natural way of expressing myself. That my natural way of expressing myself is like, kind of saying something overconfidently, as if I was the first person to think about it. And like, float this balloon up and then have people kind of pop the balloon or throw their own version back at it. And it's like my natural way to communicate.

And I can do the thing, like I do it all the time in my coaching conversations now, where I like reflect back, "Oh, you know, when you said X...". It makes people feel good, yeah, but I'm doing it knowing that it shifts... it's a persuasive technique. I know what impact that it has. It's not an authentic or spontaneous way of communicating for me. And I can see it has a positive impact but it feels like, basically, it feels manipulative.

N: Can I, can we reframe this? Instead of as natural or spontaneous as "habitual".

R: Sure.

N: Because it's not that is your "natural" way. Is there such a thing as a natural way of speaking? Or I mean, writing?

R: Well that's a whole big point, right?

N: You grew into these way of doing things this, but growing into it also implies the capacity to change.

R: Look. The tree has a shape. And the shape is encoded into his DNA. But the specific tree looks like the place that it's in. So if you put me in a different context, I would be shaped in a different way.

N: The difference between the tree and you

R: There's no difference!

N: In a very basic, deep level of non-dualism, there's no difference between you and the tree. But in the other reality that we can inhabit, the difference is, you can move, you can change your context. You are doing it all the time. You're constantly... you just said that you can manipulate people by the way you write something.

R: I understand. What I'm trying to say is, on the question of like, is there such a thing as natural expression? Yes. Is that decoupled from the other people around me? No. I live in a context. I live in an environment.

N: We're just talking about the word, what the word actually means.

R: No, like this question, can you be more or less authentic? Yes, you can. And like, there's no blank slate, where "oh if only I didn't have the social conditioning, then I'd be my full self", no, that's ridiculous. But there are degrees, there are degrees, we could prune this tree to make it look like a bonsai and everyone would say that's not natural. You know that's not natural. But if a tree got struck by lightning and it was split in half and it was weirdly lopsided, then it's still natural, it's just distorted. And so, I feel distorted when I make this effort to build on other people's phrases and things like that.

N: I understand that. I think my questioning was slightly beyond the terminology. It was more, something about... once upon a time, when you were trying to become the writer that you are. Oh, when you had started speaking in a particular way, it felt unnatural too. Because it wasn't common to you. You were trying to do something different and it felt a bit forced.

R: This is the point. This is how we're different I guess. It's the exact opposite for me. I never felt natural until I started typing on the computer. My first real friendships were (as an adolescent or whatever, maybe I had friendships when I was a kid that I don't remember) but as an adolescent my real friendships were online, with people that I never met. Because that was where I felt I could express myself authentically. And so it was never like, awkwardness, or "oh I don't know how to communicate, I'll try this and that will help". No, I know what's in my heart. I know it needs to be said, and I've got no context in which I'm allowed to say it. And then finally here's a space where I feel like I can do it.

N: What about with writing?

R: That was all writing.

N: Yeah, but when you started to write blogs and things. I remember a lot of the times you telling me how you trained yourself, you'll do these things, and then you figure out what was the best format, and you had to build onto that. It's a skill that you build, and you're still building it, right? And that's why you're a great writer. Because you spend time and you put effort to become a great writer.

R: I'm a good writer. I'm not a great writer yet.

N: We're gonna agree to disagree.

R: I'm a good ride because I maintain the conversation with the audience. It's the same skill. I'm in connection with the person I'm speaking with. I don't distinguish, my early chat room conversations that I had with people from blog posts, it's the same thing. It's just like, progressively longer and longer messages addressing a larger and larger group.

N: So what are your telling me that you never learned to do something by repeatedly doing something that felt not common to you. Is that what you're saying? That you're just like this. You were born the kind of writer you are right now? You were born expressing yourself the way your express yourself right now? And you never put effort into it.

R: Yeah, this is a difficult question actually because so much of it seems effortless. Or maybe I can say... I'm obviously putting effort in. If I spend a week or two weeks writing an article, obviously that's effort. But it's so rewarding, that it doesn't have any negative residue, it doesn't leave me tired, it doesn't feel effortful in the way that most other kinds of work, do.

N: Sure. That's a different subject.

R: I don't have an agenda. I'm going through all the subjects. (laughing)

N: Yeah. Okay.

R: I mean you want to facilitate me here? You can facilitate me. In my cosmology, everything is connected to everything else.

N: It is, in the biggest sense.

R: Okay, maybe what I need from you is like: do you know why I think it's important that you're publishing more?

N: No. Just because you want me to be like you?

R: No. I think actually, if you understood that,

N: Is it because you're obsessed with everyone writing?

R: I think if you understood that, then I would relax a bit if you understood that.

N: ...are you going to tell it to me or...?

R: You're gonna guess for a bit! You don't know this game by now? I say something provocative and slightly mysterious, and then people guess what it means, and then I give the reveal. (While I think about what it means.)

N: Ah, well, we can just have a beautiful pause... Oh, look at the trees... While you think about it. Wow... Those trees! They really like being trees! Well, I don't know if they like it, It seems like they do.

R: I actually do have a serious question, though: have you experienced any benefit from publishing some of your ideas?

N: Like personal benefit?

R: Any positive consequence that happened to you or anyone else.

N: I guess that I had heard in the past, some people appreciating that I said something in a particular way. That it resonated with their experience. And that it made them feel, in a way, less alone.

You know, when I wrote about my concussion, I remember Gabby had a concussion, and she reached out to me saying, she read it, and she felt like I could understand her experience. Because no one else could. Because it's really hard if you haven't had that experience. And I had the same with Dani as well. She had a concussion. And I think I had a conversation with what's his name? Anyway he also had a concussion, and we had a conversation about it because he read that, like "ah maybe you understand what I'm going through". And we had a talk about strategies and things. So, yeah, does that answer to your question?

R: That's a good answer. So you create opportunities for connection, and give someone the experience of not being so alone. Because you're talking about something that actually not that many people talk about. In a way that they can recognise their own experience, like wow, I'm not the only one who's felt this way.

N: I guess so. I mean, I had the same thing when I read about it, right? From other people. Being like, "oh yes, this is something that I can relate to." That person knows and they had strategies to share with me that were useful, right? That's how I learned about this idea of speaking of my energy levels in batterie sizes, A-battery, B-battery. From a guy (I can't remember his name), he wrote a book about when he had a brain injury. I think it's called My Ghost Brain or something, The Ghost Of My Brain I think its called. He was explaining the experience that I had. He was sharing some of the strategies that he found to help him. And that was one of them that really stuck with me.

R: So, In the reverse direction. Has there ever been a situation where you doubted the value of what you have to say?

N: Constantly!

R: Constantly, How does that feel?

N: It's not that I doubted, as it's not valuable, but I don't think I'm the only one that had that experience, and that other people can write about it.

R: Yeah, I'm not just thinking about writing. Have you ever been in a situation where you felt like, oh, I'm in a room full of adults and I'm a child.

N: I guess that when I was a child, probably.

R: Or when you felt like other people were more qualified on a topic than you.

N: Yeah, of course. Of course.

R: And how would you get qualified?

N: By learning about that topic. How do you get qualified? By talking confidently about it!

R: Yeah. By learning and teaching. That's the other half of it, and the teaching thing comes with recognition. Like, oh, I actually do know what I'm talking about, because other people are validating it and saying yes, that matches my experience. And that's why makes I don't have the imposter syndrome thing happen very often. Because I feel like if I didn't know what I was talking about, probably a lot of the people that are listening to me, would stop listening to me. Because the things I'm describing are quite easy to verify. And, they would try them out and say "oh no, that obviously doesn't work."

N: Yeah, you just have a unique way of expressing it. Of explaining something that a lot of people experience, but they don't put into words. I had the same experience with Rob when he was explaining this thing that he was testing out, for interacting. I'm like, that's basically what I do, all the time, I had never actually thought about it, or put it into words, in a way that sounded like a thing.

R: You're describing being a normal person

N: You're just describing interacting with another human. But it's a very eloquent way of describing it, in a way that he really thought about it, and put words into it. I appreciate that.

R: I'm gonna stop with the Socratic method and just tell you what I think.

N: Finally, you came into it, you understood what you wanted to say?

R: I'm gonna be honest.

N: The chitchat gave you enough time to think about it.

R: I think you suffer from Imposter Syndrome excessively much. And that you have a fantasy that, oh, if I had the right training, if I had the right qualification, if I had the right label, a PhD or something, then that feeling would evaporate and I would feel qualified to talk about something.

And I don't believe that story at all. I think a more direct way to get that confidence is to win the respect of your peers by explaining things that you care about. And, if you started the feedback loop of publishing your ideas and getting people to respond to them, I think pretty quickly, you'd find like wow, this is actually a lot of fun. It's a great way to connect with people. I'm learning a lot and I'm getting more confidence in my voice and more willingness to put myself in difficult situations and talk to people I look up to and feel like I've got something to offer them in exchange.

N: I mean, I feel like we would do that a lot with our trainings already. Like a lot of the trainings that we're running. At the beginning, sure. with some of the topics especially as we were exploring them, I did feel more imposter. I don't think I feel it that much anymore. Maybe that's why it's not interesting anymore.

R: Yeah, exactly.

N: Actually I was talking about this with someone yesterday, I think Alexandra yesterday, but also with someone else. This thing of, when something becomes common, it's not interesting anymore to me. I need that new thing. It's like "ooh this is new, I need to figure it out. My brain is excited about the thing that it doesn't know, not that much by showing off the thing that it does." Maybe that's a difference as well, why I don't write.

R: That is a difference, I'm excited about talking about the basics.

N: I mean that's fine. I show, you tell.

R: When you get into a new topic that you're excited about... The thing I mean by excessive imposter syndrome is that...

N: I know what you mean, and there is some truth to it. And there's another side of it as well. Where the imposter is real. Because I'm in a learning phase. I'm not a master. I'm not a teacher. I'm a learner. So, there's a part of it where I am an imposter, if I claim to be a master. If I claim to be a teacher as well. If I claimed to be a learner, then that'll be a different story.

R: This is what I mean by excessive imposter. I'm not saying you should give up on that sense of... you know that there is a healthy kind of ignorance, like "I don't know. I'm not at that stage yet. I'm still learning", but I think you overdo it to the extent where it really undermines your learning and cuts you off from opportunities. And and it seems that you're actually quite comfortable in private settings to be the teacher. And you own your limitations, like this is the research I've done, this is what really stuck out to me, do your own research, you know I'm just a beginner... you really contextualize it very well. And I'm just saying I think if you did that same thing but more in public, you'd get big payoffs.

N: Like? I can meet people that are doing the same path, and learn with them?

R: The small payoff, is you get to meet people that are on the same level as you. You get to get paid for some of the conversations that you currently doing for free. The big payoff is, you get a sense of like, oh, I've got something to contribute here, that's distinct from everyone else that's contributing here, and therefore, while I'm not a master in all the different fields, I'm a master of this one, little tiny narrow thing and that qualifies me to speak to all of my heroes, as a peer. That's the payoff. That's the best, the most exciting thing of it, like I'm allowed to go into the same room as the smartest person in the world and have a conversation with them. That's the thing for me, that's so juicy. You'll have a different one. But if I want to learn about something, it doesn't take me long before I feel like I can talk to the leading experts about it.

N: I think for me the thing about learning in public, that is the thing that could be interesting. Like you know like how at the gathering, I ran this session on harm reduction? And in a way it was a big deal, because it's this topic that I'm learning about, that I'm really into it, but I'm a beginner. I'm a total beginner and just learning about this whole thing. Well I think that I'm a total beginner probably total beginners think that I'm not. That's a point of perspective, right? But as soon as I said, "oh I can hold this session" because I felt like it could be useful because of the context we were coming from. It was like, suddenly I had all these points to make, and I was like, oh, the knowledge is already there because I already learned it. And now I can share it, but I shared it from the place of "I'm learning. I'm new at this. But this is what I found out that I find very interesting. And these are the areas where I'm worried about or these are the things that I don't know yet." And I think that is a learning in public that I don't know how to do, because I don't come from that context.

R: I think part of it is that you and I are looking, our attention is pointing in opposite directions almost. Where it's like I'm saying, "look out into the world and notice that you know more than most people in the world about psychedelic ham reduction". Whereas you're looking at the people you look up to and going "of all the people that know about psychologic ham reduction, I know almost the least!" And their both true!

N: They are both true.

R: They're both true.

N: I just want you to remember that.

R: I do. I do. I'm just saying though, that your position as an enthusiastic late stage beginner, that's actually quite conscientious about how you communicate, is extremely valuable. That's the bit that makes you screw up your face, but it's the truth of the matter.

N: I mean, it's not that information is not out there. The information already exists. That's how I found it.

R: (growling) The beginner experience is so fucking valuable because the experts always lose touch with where the beginners are.

N: Yeah, that is correct.

R: And so like, if you can illustrate while you're at that early stage, if you can, map out the journey that you're going through, other beginners will find it, like "oh thank god! Someone knows what is like to be me! Someone has filtered it out what are the actual priorities I should be paying attention to it at this stage, and then present options for where to go next." That's why they're so few teachers in the world that are actually good at their job, they get too expert and they just completely lose touch with how much tacit knowledge they've internalised.

N: That is true. And I know at least one example.

R: ...is it me? (laughing)

N: Yes, yes. Now that I think about it. I had someone else in mind but...

R: fuck! why does this always happen? Yeah, I know who you're thinking of too. The deep end. But maybe I actually need to go in a the fucking safe end for a minute.

N: If they still don't know how to swim, don't throw them in the middle of the pool! Put the floaties on! Show them where the floaties are! Show them how to put them on themselves.

R: Another thing is that I don't think you appreciate, is that there's thing about being a teenager where, you look at your parents' world and you're like, you guys are such idiots. The government is so dumb. The economy is dumb, jobs are so dumb, the boss is such an idiot. And actually, you're mostly right, like that teenage impulse is mostly true. There is just a lot of nonsense. And the problem is, actually making an improvement on that system is really, really hard. That's what you underestimate when you're a teenager.

But you're actually true, like for example: for me, it was scientific materialism and reductionism and the way the academia works, it's so dumb! It's really easy to just look at that and say it's dumb. So, when you are starting out as a beginner, at least for you and for me and for other people I know, maybe it's not the normal posture, but when you start learning something new, you actually do reject all the bullshit, and you have a fresh look at it, and you actually start right near the cutting edge. Whereas people that have been doing it for 20 years, they're actually quite far away from the cutting edge, and they're quite hypnotised by all of the dumb, old, out of date ideas in their field. So there's some real gold in the beginner's mind, because you're not encumbered by all of these things.

N: I can see that on myself, you know, in certain topics where I'm like, no, this is the way, because that was what I learnt. And when presented with new information, it gets discarded, there's a particular bias on that, right? I don't remember the name.

R: Academia is like catching up to instincts that you and I've had for the last 20 years.

N: Well yeah. Many people, right?

R: Yeah. Because it has to move slow I mean that's fine.

N: I think there's something here, and I don't know exactly how to name it, that I'm afraid of modelling. (Okay maybe that's a side note: how aware I am of modelling). There's something that I've around that I'm worried about, and I don't want to become that. That is: "I'm just a beginner but I'm going to present myself as if I'm a master."

R: Ugh it makes my skin crawl.

N: Yeah, how many of them you know! Seriously it's like I went to a breathwork workshop, once. and now I can teach you about breathwork, and I can tell the world how much I know about it. I feel like it's actually dangerous. And it's a posture that I certainly don't want to be in. So, for me a learning journey, I'm at the beginning of a very long learning journey, that is going to take me many, many years. And it's not just about, I did the one course and I can tell you all about it. So that's what I'm worried about. Coming in with this "I know something, that you don't. I'm going to tell you."

R: Okay, that's where you run off the cliff and go too far.

N: Yeah, maybe I did. But you know what I mean right? Maybe just naming the posture helps me to be like, oh, I'm not actually doing that. And there are mechanisms that I can put in place to prevent it.

R: I mean, I'd even go further like, it's obvious that one of the things that's important to you is that you don't present yourself as being more experienced than you are. That's a danger that's really common in our subculture. But what I'm trying to get at, is that is so core to your system that you can relax. You're safe, you're not going to do that. Anytime you talk about any of this stuff, you're so good at addressing the safety side of things. I just don't see you being prideful and arrogant and overstating your expertise. You just don't do that! You don't! And if you get close to doing that, you have these internal alarm systems that are go "bleep bleep bleep! This is bullshit. I'm bullshitting myself. I'm trying to bullshit someone else" and you stop immediately. Because you have enough self-awareness to do that.

N: I mean, I'm also aware, that there is something appealing about... the feeling of someone looking at me because they think I have knowledge. It feels good. And I'm aware how sometimes in our work, I might be entering into that territory. And sometimes, I also think that it's not true.

R: Yeah, it's self-inflated. Like people are looking at me, therefore I must be smart, therefore I'll just say things and people are going to accept it, because they already looking at me.

N: I hope you don't mind me saying...

R: I do that sometimes.

N: But I feel like I have learnt some of that posture from you. And while for you sometimes it might be true (sometimes not). That it's one of the behaviours that I learnt from you, that I don't really appreciate having.

R: I agree. I know it in myself as like, there's something about being a teacher that always feels a little bit out of integrity. And it's become more clear and it's why I had less enthusiasm for teaching, basically. Because, if I'm honest about my experience, what I know is a really tiny little subset of the world and other people know much much more, and other people are in contexts that I have got no access to. The limitations are actually enormous, but if I would be honest about the limitations, I feel like I wouldn't have an audience in the same way. So there's this awkward balancing game. And it always feels a little bit out of integrity.

I feel the best when I can just... like the reason I think the original Microsolidarity proposal went so well, was because it was framed as: "This is what I'm thinking, this is what I've seen, this is what I'm doing", and it's not advice to anyone else. I'm just describing what I'm doing. And people were like, "wow, that also matches what I'm doing." That was the exciting payoff. I wasn't trying to teach anyone. I was, you know, like I was, I chose what things to categorise, and what to prioritise and everything, knowing what would find resonance.

N: There is one way in which you do communicate that I appreciate a lot. You put a lot of emphasis into sharing things from your experience and your perspective and not claiming or generalising, not claiming it to be true to everyone. Sometimes you land into that territory, but the way that you're actually communicating, it's very experiential.

R: That's a bit that I would always love more feedback from people on, is when I overstep my own subjectivity and start making objective claims. Because it sneaks up on me, sometimes it's really easy. But it's something that I really care about not doing.

N: And maybe this is the downside of doing a lot of research and learning, and reading papers and you know, the whole academic side of me that lives in there. Against your "I'm just going to tell you right now what I was thinking in the shower." Right, like you will do that, but you share it from your experience as, "I had this thought, this is what's going on for me. This is my experience." And maybe I spend one more year reading about stuff from others and by that point, I can claim it as "studies have shown..." and that is generalising! But it is detaching it from the real experience of "This is what I found out through living life, and having, encounters." And to be honest, a lot of the times (not that I'm not being honest, but... R: let's stop lying for a second! N: Let's stop lying!)

N: No there is an honest part of myself, that is wanting to be honest with myself while saying this. Majority of the times when I speak from my own experiences, that's where I feel the mastery. The mastery of, I actually know what I'm talking about when I'm telling you this thing. It's because I understood it experientially. And it's false to claim it as everyone has the same experience, but a lot of the times when I speak from that place, people are like, "I had the same experience!"

R: Yeah. Ain't that just a little paradox.

N: Yeah, and then I'll go down to figure out that this thing that I just discovered is called the Ideal Parent Protocol. So, it's like, whoa, I could've studied it for years, or I could just, found it for myself. But claiming it as "you should do this thing," that's the point. I guess I'm still finding the way to share what I know.

R: I think I wanted to put a sharper point on it, which is that, in many respects your knowledge is more rigorous than mine. Like you have triangulated more with other researchers, and that sorta thing. But it's much more boring. And this is the thing, I've tweeted about this.

N: Academia is not fun. Have you ever read an academic paper?

R: The point is like, you can optimise for truth or you can optimise for memetic fitness? And I optimise for memetic fitness, because there's no point writing something incredibly true if no one reads it! You need to find the sweet spot between it being true, and it being attractive. That's what rigorous thinkers really fine unappealing, because they're like, "no I must just give the unvarnished truth", but it's like, yeah, truth doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's always a communication. It's always a relationship between people. And so your job is to attune with where people are, and try and give them as much accuracy as you can while holding their attention. And like most academics are not willing to do that, they're just like, no, I'm going to give as much accuracy as possible.

N: Yeah. And at the end of the day, how many academic papers that we thought that were true, have changed...

R: Exactly. Whereas if you can just be bold with your claims, but also know that they're not like true, true. They're just like, wow an exciting insight I had today, it's really useful for the moment, maybe it's useful to someone else.

N: Or this is a thing that I read that I found interesting, and it sparked this other thought, or this is the experience that we had and therefore, this is what we learned. Yeah, I feel like if I can find that tone, that way of sharing from that perspective, I could do it.

I still don't find the extrinsic or intrinsic motivation to do it. More than you forcing me.

R: Encouraging, please.

N: Mmm... yeah...

R: Forcefully encouraging.

N: Forcefully encouraging. Yes, there we go. A compromise. You know what I mean? It's a tricky one.

R: Yeah, that's it actually, that's I think the root of the issue here. How to connect... I mean it's just a hypothesis at this stage: that if you have more public with your ideas, that there would be payoffs for you. My hypothesis is that you'd have like self-stoking cycle where you just want to do more of it. But you don't get the immediate payoff, you're not like, oh, I'd love to go on Twitter right now and write some thoughts down. Like it just doesn't work that way for you.

N: No. It's a habit, right? It's not natural to me? Just going back to that territory.

R: It's not in your nature to seek that kind of approval from strangers on the internet.

N: No. Or from anyone really. Approval is not one of the things that I seek.

R: so maybe this is the thing, is to actually tune in with what kind...

N: It's inner approval more than outer approval, what I'm seeking.

R: ...what kind of benefits would be motivating. You look out. What you just, the first thing that you described before was other people read your work and they said, wow I feel seen. That motivates you doesn't it?

N: Yeah, that is motivating.

R: I wonder if you could describe, a personal experience you've had with harm reduction in psychedelics, in a way that Illustrates your perspective that other people would go like, "huh, I saw that happen too. Now I know what that was."

N: Yeah. And one thing that motivates me, I'm trying to find motivation, it's very hard to.

R: I'm so proud of you.

N: Thank you.

R: Does that work?

N: No, but thank you for being proud. I mean, I guess it's cool for you. I think there's a... well now I lost it, the train went down a tunnel, as someone once said. I can't remember who.

R: Well that sounds like a very hilarious person. The train of thought is gone in a tunnel. How long is the tunnel?

N: It seems like very long. Especially if it's going through parallel tracks. I think there's one piece of motivation (this is a side note, from the other, different tracks) that is about what I said as well about for example, on the psychedelic therapy field. It's about finding other people that are also learning and creating my own learning environment, right? Because a lot of the learning environment is about finding others to share insights with. So that one is motivating.

And then the other one that I was going to name... Ah, I think this is an intrinsic motivation, but I'm not really sure, it's basically when I'm pissed off about something. It's like a ranting, like, I've seen this thing, and I'm sick and tired of it, and someone needs to put a stop to it to this madness! And that one is gonna be me.

R: I love that.

N: It's the ranting me that goes like these fucking! people! doing this fucking thing again! Can you stop doing that!

R: This is what Jane said on a recent podcast with Tasshin. That when she looked into it, anger and action are extremely close. Almost the same thing.

N: Well one motivates the other, I guess.

R: And you get angry all the time. And it's a good anger. It's like this is not on!

N: The irrational thinking! the illogical reasoning! the.. the... all of those things!

R: yeah, me too, so much of my communication is fuelled by anger. And I've learnt to find the pleasure in it.

N: Yeah. I think a lot of the anger that may... You know, like the Coffee Pot blog that I wrote many years ago. It was a little bit fueled by it.

R: Yeah. Right. "These fucking clowns! They can't see what's going on. Look, I'll explain it."

N: And it was also a way to make sense of what I was learning. But it is about, yeah, this thing that I was saying before, for example, if I was motivated or if I was more interested to understand, why people go into this experience of "I went through one workshop and now I'm the master, I'm gonna tell you all about it". And it's like, can someone consider the danger of that!?

R: someone think of the children!

N: Someone think of the children that are gonna follow in suit. It is in a way, a little bit the same as cults, it's the danger of cults. Right there is something dangerous to it and I'm like, ugh it gives me chills.

R: Yeah yeah. Like I said it made my skin crawl, before, when you started describing it. I still want to understand though, I've lost track of something here which is, what is the benefit, what is the payoff for you, of getting that anger out?

N: Mmm. It's interesting. Um, I'm not sure. I assume that it's just expressing the anger in a way. It's like screaming or punching something. It is releasing that pent-up energy that the anger produces. But I think in particular with this kind of thing that we are naming, it's like, I see danger, in something that is going on. And part of the naming it, is making it explicit and visible to others.

R: It's your protective instinct.

N: Yes, I guess so. It's a defence attack. Well, it is, if you think about it.

R: So that's natural right? that's natural to be protective of the people that you care about. And you're the kind of weirdo that cares about a lot of people.

N: I don't think that's a weirdo.

R: I think a lot of people only care for quite a small number of people. But you have had experiences that make you care about, kind of, all of the people.

N: Yeah. I think a lot of people have that experience Rich.

R: What about all the evidence?

N: Specifically, probably I'm going to generalise here, it will land more on the female side of the genders. The person that has been socialised to care about others.

R: My reading of world history and politics is that the majority of people don't care that much about that many people.

N: Yeah, did you think about world history and policy as leaning on the male spectrum.

R: Yeah it's mostly men. I honestly don't think it's particularly gendered because. You could argue it in reverse.

N: That's actually a whole argument here, that we could have a rant about about: why we socialise a gender into taking care of other people, paying attention to their needs, doing anything in their power, for those other people to be fine... but we don't put them in power, in political power, where they're actually, that's exactly what they need to be doing!

R: Okay, you want to have this? I'm trying to coach you to take power and you're like, oh no, I don't really have anything to offer.

N: Okay. Okay, I saw it just before you started saying it. (laughing)

R: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

N: The world is so unfair. "...kill yourself or get over it."

R: I think women are just as tribally motivated as men are. Or more so. They will care about the hundred people they know best, or they care about the people that share some kind of identity marker with them.

N: Is it easy for me to care about people that I think are assholes? No. I fucking hate them. But deep inside, I do care about them.

R: You do. This is, this is your great weakness. You actually think people are great. You actually think all people deserve dignity and compassion.

N: I do! you don't?

R: I do. I do.

N: Then why do you think that I'm so different?

R: I just don't think it's that common.

N: Oh, you think we are special?

R: We are special people.

N: Oh unique special people. No, we're not.

R: I listen to a podcast yesterday.

N: We are unique in our commonalities. Something like that. I heard someone said in the past. I am gonna have to pause this conversation.

R: I am also gonna have to pause. Maybe I'll make a stop.